zimshan: (SPN - Goofy Times)
[personal profile] zimshan

I’m sorry, there was a shitload of awesome, excellent, metarific things in this, but nothing else really matters past:


Ugh, I have the biggest warm fuzzies and omg, I really didn’t think we’d get it this soon. Like the whole ep I was waiting for things to go wrong so it wouldn‘t happen and I was hoping against hope when Death appeared back at Bobbys but even when he said it I found myself SHOCKED, UGH, I AM SHOCKED. I feel like the show hasn't given us reprieve and something to seriously cheer about in...FOREVER. I forgot they were capable. Even though the cliffhanger was CRUEL as this show likes to do, it’s also OBVIOUSLY an insta fandom FIC CHALLENGE! REUNION! WITH THE BESTEST MOST EPIC MOTHERFUCKIN HUG EVER. And the real one in January better not disappoint. (Omg have we really not had a real bro hug since 4.01??? MORE THAN TWO YEARS??? 6.01 really doesn’t count anymore.)

And can I just say, that this ep came just in time? Because after last week and the bad taste it left in my mouth, and after knowing from the promo’s Sam was gonna try to kill Bobby for this, UGH. Despondent is the only thing to describe it. As much as I've loved Souless Sam for his short-term entertainment value, show was depressing me beyond believe here, and I’m not sure I could have taken a second more of this without reprieve.

As for Dean & Death, HELLO, everything about the physical manifestation of Death makes the meta part of my brain go AJFKLALALALLA. I wear my founding member Dean/Death ship pin proudly, because years ago when I vidded my first SPN vid, I thought I was being the most MORBIDLY CRAZY person in the world, and then four years later Dean sat down with Death over PIZZA. And I thought that ep was vindication! Safe to say this ep was like the best thing ever to watch unfold. UM HI DEAN GOES TO DEATH ABOUT SAM AGAIN! LITERALLY! And then becomes Death to get Sam back. LITERALLY! I felt like this linked back to sooooo many episodes without even mentioning a word about them directly. ‘In My Time of Dying’ and ‘Death Takes A Holiday’ are the two easy ones with Tessa’s appearance. But the girl dying brought me all the way back to ‘Faith’, because the first time Dean cheated death at the cost of another innocent’s life. So it seems natural that this kind of consequence should be extended to every death evasion. Disruption of the natural order. Even more strongly, especially when Death was talking in the end, I was feeling all these neon blinking arrows being drawn straight back to ‘All Hell Breaks Loose‘. Dean caring about himself so little that he’d trade his soul to get Sam back. I mean, Death essentially said here that these ‘not dying when your supposed to’ deals the Winchesters have been so fond of, they fuck up the globe. And as such, make Death's job more complicated than it already is. It’s hard sometimes because we’re so attached to these characters and just want them to be happy and so we forget that they’ve violated natural laws. And it that context, it makes such startling sense that last season had to end like it did, that they can’t just get rewarded for bottling up what they started. That Death laid his lesson out to Dean very POINTEDLY: HI DEAN YOU CAN”T CHOOSE WHO LIVES AND DIES. This show has never actually taken 'All Hell Breaks Loose' and said, hey what Dean did there was wrong and selfish and horrific. It’s always been OH DEAN COULDN'T LIVE WITHOUT SAM DON’T ASK HIM YOU KNOW HE HAD TO SAVE SAM. Death’s lesson lays it out simple.

Seriously though I was so prepared right from the jump that shit was gonna go wrong, because really when have we not had a hiatus ep where shit went wrong???? As soon as Dean decided not to reap that girl, I thought that was enough for him to loose the deal. WHY DID HE NOT SEE THAT WAS RENIGGING ON THE DEAL??? Thankfully Death needs them to keep digging, and recognizes Dean’s suicidal tendencies without Sam (OH MAN, THAT SCENE RIGHT BEFORE, DEAN'S FACE THROUGH THE BARS, IT WAS LIKE CROATOAN ALL OVER AGAIN WASN’T IT?). ETA: And it needs to be repeated, because I missed it the first time around and wouldn't have found it if not for [livejournal.com profile] counteragent's link, but [livejournal.com profile] destina totally called this Death saves Sam in her post-S5 fic. PERFECTLY.

ALSO, SOULS! THAT’S THE SEASON WATCHWORD THEN! I’m cool with that. So it’s gonna tie into this purgatory thing and heaven civil war. AWESOME. Okay so actually anything that happens in a world where SAM HAS HIS MOTHERFUCKIN SOUL BACK sounds AWESOME to me at this point. So Sam gets his back, yet the whole rest of the season is still all about souls? Considering that’s been most interesting part of this whole exercise for me, I am TOTALLY FINE WITH THAT!

I see people are concerned about the state of re-ensouled Sam, but the way I figure Sam will be fine with that drywall until approximately...May sweeps? Or the finale? The last minute of the finale even knowing their track record. Or would they be cruel enough to use that as an end game thing? Sam goes crazy and Dean has to put him out of his misery and then kills himself too? Am I going too morbid again? But seriously, while I don’t think the drywall clause will have any significance in the immediate future, that idea of random striking of impending doom on Sam is kinda terrifying. “Don’t scratch the wall” gave me shivers and will continue to do so throughout hiatus.

In conclusion: SAM FUCKIN WINCHESTER IS BACK, YO!! And so is hiatus! HENCE FANDOM'S NEED FOR GOBS OF FIC TO TIDE US OVER FOR THE NEXT MONTH! Start those engines, writers! Fandom's in need of some EPIC REUNION FIC HERE! Since I liked how it worked last year, I'll be keeping track of codas I find as they are written, and re-editing this post with them, to keep them all in one place. If you find one I haven't seen yet, let me know!

- 'Everything is Clearer Now' [Outsider's POV, Implied S/D] - by [livejournal.com profile] longsufferingly - Sam's not the first coma patient they've had, but he gets her interest in a way others haven't.
- 'How Bright Their Frail Deeds' [Dean POV, Gen] - [livejournal.com profile] wordsothewitch - Once before, Dean Winchester stood in a blinding flash of white and saw the truth.
- 'For a Season There Must Be Pain' [Dean POV, Implied S/D] - [livejournal.com profile] britomart_is - He doesn't care about me, he just cares about his little brother, Sammy, burning in hell. He'll kill me to get that other guy back. - I had to do a double-take on this one. What a twisted idea for a coda!
- FICLET: 'Fallen' [Dean, Sam, gen] - [livejournal.com profile] ancastar - When Sam's wall came tumbling down, there was no groan or crash, no warning...
- 'The Strings Around Sam's Neck [Sam, Luci, Michael, Adam, God, gen] - [livejournal.com profile] copper_on_mars - "I can't believe He can do this to me," Lucifer whispers harshly. "I hate cello!" - A music geek's tongue-in-cheek spin on exactly what type of torture the Cage has entailed for Sam...
- 'Against Your Ruins' [coda, Sam&Dean, Dean POV, PG-13] - [livejournal.com profile] obstinatrix - ...his heart feels like it’s swelling up to fill hollows in himself that he’d managed to convince himself weren’t there.
- 'Read This' [FITB 6.11] - [livejournal.com profile] datenshiblue - Dean writes more than one letter...
- 'Out' [coda, Dean, Sam, gen h/c] - by reading [on ff.net] - There was a slide of something through Sam's eyes – horror, terror, grief – that was gone so quickly it was as if had never been there, dazed bewilderment taking its place. - kudos to [livejournal.com profile] ash48 for mentioning this one!
- 'Unbroken' [6.11 coda] - [livejournal.com profile] st_salieri - "It was me," he said in a low voice. "This wasn't like being possessed. I was there, and there was no one else. There's no demon I can blame this on. It was all me." - I like the unique take on following the blackout with such bone-weary Winchesters that the usual reunion scene is circumvented.

In other news, two more finals and I am vidding through this winter break! [NO SERIOUSLY hold me to it, I have three storyboarded, at least ONE will be done before the end of January. I SWEAR.]

Date: 2010-12-11 06:52 pm (UTC)
ext_11786: (spn:sam is a bamf)
From: [identity profile] dotfic.livejournal.com
I have so much \o/ right now. :D Such a strong episode, and souls being the big thing, and Death telling Dean he's a detective and he should keep digging. TESSA! <3<3<3


Don't scratch the wall. I loved that. *shivers*

Date: 2010-12-11 08:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
I am just elated they were smart enough to realize we couldn't take more than a half of a season to getting Sam's soul back. I LOVE THAT I CAN SAY THAT. SAM'S SOUL IS BACK!!

I AM SO excited about souls being marked as the focal point now. GIMME, SHOW, I want to know more about your conception of the soul, please!

And the wall, ugh, it's a perfect impending doom to loom over their heads. PERFECT.

Date: 2010-12-11 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] counteragent.livejournal.com
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What you said.

Date: 2010-12-11 08:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
I can't even remember the last time this show gave us something to be joyous about! I mean I know, drywall and all, but to leave a hiatus ep feeling gleeful is beyond strange!

Date: 2010-12-11 07:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katsheswims.livejournal.com
!!!! So happy!!!

Though I am a little worrid about the amnesia thing. Sam won't remember Hell, but what about what his body was doing on Earth when he was in Hell-will be remember those actions? (Like letting Dean turn into a vampire?!) And of course that wall will come down eventually...

I was also a little worried when Dean was looking through the door at Sam in the panic room-I thought Dean may put on the ring and kill Sam! Since he thought he had no chance of getting Sam's soul back at that point. (And maybe then kill himself too, I mean he did kill himself at the beginning of the episode...he'll do a lot of things for Sam)

And Adam was finally mentioned. I knew he was in the cage too! Though it didn't take long for Dean to choose between them. It's sad that Adam will (apparently) be suffering in Hell for eternity, but there was no real choice for Dean there. It's always Sam.

Date: 2010-12-11 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Oh, I think it definitely means he'll remember everything after Hell and this last year. Him dealing with that is gonna be hard enough, half of why I think this drywall idea is really quite excellent. It gives Sam the chance to deal with what he did without his soul all year, and all the Dean apple pie life stuff, before he gets inundated with all the Hell stuff. As far as devices go, I think this is a good one.

Since Croatoan, I after reasoned there's no way Dean could ever kill Sam without following it by killing himself too. The only reason he didn't after Hell was 'cause Sam knew it too, and made him hold a promise he knew he'd have to keep instead.

Adam is such a wrench in the show, I'd sometimes rather they forget him, and thought Michael's line about Adam not being home worked to solve he wasn't there. There's no reason they would mention him again except that they probably want to do something with it down the line. Which makes me uneasy. But of course, it would always be Sam Dean chose. XD

Date: 2010-12-11 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] radiophile
I'm so glad I have you on my flist ;_; I wasn't too impressed with this episode, and for a mid-season finale I thought it was really disappointing. But! I see what you mean about all the connections to previous episodes, and the ~lesson that Death hammered into Dean does have huge repercussions in terms of how Dean will view his past actions AND what he'll do in the future if presented with another opportunity to cheat Death.

If we resume the season in episode 11 with some ~ONE MONTH LATER~ bullshit I'm gonna be so mad, tho :| I kinda don't have high hopes for them picking up right where this ep left off, but dammit I want my PROPER reunion scene T_T

But yeah! YAY SAM'S SOUL ♥ That's really all I should be focusing on here, huh? XD That, and the fact that Balthazar called Castiel Sam's boyfriend (and Sam didn't even question it XD).

Date: 2010-12-11 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Awww, well I totally know how it is to be underwhelmed and find some light in others posts. Glad I could pass it on!

I really think this whole season so far has been about drawing connections back to previous episodes. There's been alot of intentionalness going on. Edlund made a comment recently about how the writers room and scripts have just become pure meta this season.

If we resume the season in episode 11 with some ~ONE MONTH LATER~ bullshit I'm gonna be so mad, tho :| I kinda don't have high hopes for them picking up right where this ep left off, but dammit I want my PROPER reunion scene T_T
UMMM. Have you read the TV Guide scans yet?

But yes, mostly it's just SAM'S SOUL! IT'S BACKKK!!!! It's a big gift for this show to give at hiatus time, considering what we normally get! XD

Date: 2010-12-11 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] radiophile
UMMM. Have you read the TV Guide scans yet?
I have, but I went back to reread it in case I missed anything. So (redacted for spoilers)

If the first episode back from hellatus is the dragon ep, then I really don't think there's going to be any showing of what happened right after Sam gets his soul back :\ Ughhhh SHOW Y U DO DIS. Like, why end on a cliffhanger if you have no intention of picking up where it left off??!

I'm just going to drown myself in fic for the next 48 days. DON'T LET ME DOWN, FANDOM ;_;
Edited Date: 2010-12-11 11:25 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-12-12 12:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
OKAY. So I actually haven't read the whole thing, so I was just looking at TWOP's spoiler list. My impression from those facts is that [spoilertalk]it sounds as if it's going to be mostly introspective on Sam's part? And then end with the resolution of this episode in Bobby's basement. I'm thinking like the opposite of Angel's soul extraction episode, where we went into his mind, except looking into the past instead of creating futures that don't exist? Because we're supposed to see all what happened to Sam when he first got topside again, how he stalked Dean when he first got back and all. Figured the monster mythology dragon part would be some story told to Sam by Grandpa after he meets up with them? And then the last like five, ten minutes are back to Sam getting re-ensouled, cue extra epic, episode ending hugs and all that. [spoilertalk] MAYBE THIS JUST EXISTS IN MY MIND THOUGH, I DON'T KNOW! I'm not sure I want to deal with the idea that they wouldn't show me Dean's face when he gets REAL SAM back after all this crap though!

One thing is for sure, fic is DEFINITELY the answer to all this madness!

Date: 2010-12-12 03:20 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] radiophile
Omg yes, you're right! And that kinda gives me hope that they aren't completely going to gloss over the boys' relationship. Like, if they're going to bother showing... that, then they're invested in fixing the problems between them. Right? ... Right?? ;_;

Date: 2010-12-12 05:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
That's one way of looking at it! I just figure, this might be the ONE time we get a hug that's actually MUTUAL, you know? Not just one of them so glad one is alive while the other's all wtf, but Dean's missed his real brother for months while dealing with this guy who looks like him but TRIED TO KILL HIM and Sam's just getting emotions back for the first time in over a year and ALLL THE GUILT that comes with that. THIS IS EPIC MATERIAL HERE. When have they ever shied away from epic??? Or so I will be telling myself for the next month and a half. ;)

Date: 2010-12-11 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cece-away.livejournal.com
Oh sweetie, I am so dancing with you! Loved this so much. And we all know Sam is going to scratch at that wall.

*twirling madly*

Oh, and thanks for the references back to previous episodes.

Date: 2010-12-11 09:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Show, giving us something to be joyous about! It's shocking, really.

Ha, someone mentioned 'Bad Day At Black Rock'. Sam can't help but scratch. Joyousness can't happen without some looming impending doom, it wouldn't be SPN. ;)

Date: 2010-12-12 03:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com


Love everything you've said here! Dean/Death = \o/

So it’s gonna tie into this purgatory thing and heaven civil war.

Yep, yep.. *nods* SOULS ARE IMPORTANT! And what a helluva why to introduce us to that... Now that Sam has is back they can get on with the story. I'm DYING to know how they handle Sam now... whether we'll see fallout from the rather dubious decisions he made without a soul, or whether that will all be wiped. I think they'll go the angst and have some guilty/remorseful Sam (maybe) there for a bit.

Ooooh, thanks so much for the Coda links. I'll be filling up on those now I think..\o/


Date: 2011-01-27 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
And you know, it's taken me more than a month to respond back to these comments! XD

I kinda lost track of the high from this ep, and now with all the interviews coming out for this weeks ep, I'm all back to WHEEE!!! Sounds like now they're gonna spend the second half going over the whole without a soul deal, even as Sam is with one now. SOULS ARE THE WATCHWORD. I'm still loving it. No doubt the REAL Sam will be all aghast with the memories of what he's done the last year and a half! GASP, I wonder if hoodies will make a comeback?!?

Date: 2010-12-12 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] singingrl.livejournal.com
I was pretty impressed with the amount of issues that got resolved in this episode and the level of intrigue the episode was able to generate considering there was so little to be fearful of in it. I liked that Dean was once again grappling with his inner demons and that he knew what he had to do everything he could to fight his brother on the whole soul fiasco, even though he knew it might ultimately break him. I think it was such a powerful midseason finale, more happened than I thought would and best of all, Bobby survived!

Date: 2011-01-27 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Right?! I really didn't expect much of this, I was surprised by how powerful it was able to be. Quietly so, but this show tends to do quietly powerful better than the bombastic kind. I'm still floored at how after everything this show has done, they can still bring Dean so 'end of his rope' like he is here. And somehow it feels fresh and new and WORSE than ever before. Six seasons in, it's kinda something!

And bobby survived! Again! You'd think we'd quit worrying about that guy dying, but they always get me nail-bitey! Everytime! I think Mystery Spot scarred me for life!

Date: 2010-12-12 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] august-monsoon.livejournal.com
Seriously though I was so prepared right from the jump that shit was gonna go wrong, because really when have we not had a hiatus ep where shit went wrong????

Ever since the spoilers came out I've been rocking in a corner, so completely sure that they were going to pull another Abandon All Hope and Bobby would die. BUT OMG SAMMY GOT HIS SOUL BACK!!! NOT ONLY THAT, BUT IT WAS FORCED INTO HIM (I was hoping for that scenario)!!!!

Also, you know Sammy will scratch-that boy cannot leave well enough alone, personally I'm hoping for it all to come crashing down in the finale and the next season (because dammit there will be one) to be about *healing*.

P.S. I <3 for the recs, fully intending to immerse myself in fic until the hellatus has blown over.

Date: 2011-01-27 08:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Haha! Bobby dying has been this thing they've been playing with and teasing us about for AGES now! You'd think you'd get used to it, but I'm always nail-bitey about it every time!

I'm really REALLY uncertain about how they can deal with this wall crumbling thing. It's obviously gotta happen at some point, it's a great gun on the wall of impending doom. But I'm kinda having trouble seeing how there can be anything beyond that? How do you fix a crumbled wall in the mind of a guy that's been flayed alive in hell for 150 years? I mean without killing him to put him out of his misery, that is. We'll have to see how they play it out. But it's nerve-wracking, for sure!

Hope you enjoyed the hiatus recs! XD

Date: 2010-12-16 11:41 am (UTC)
ext_13391: (Default)
From: [identity profile] smilla02.livejournal.com
BB, I'm still flailing about this episode and after our conversations I can now answer to your insightful post not from a point of defensiveness.

>>That Death laid his lesson out to Dean very POINTEDLY: HI DEAN YOU CAN”T CHOOSE WHO LIVES AND DIES. This show has never actually taken 'All Hell Breaks Loose' and said, hey what Dean did there was wrong and selfish and horrific. It’s always been OH DEAN COULDN'T LIVE WITHOUT SAM DON’T ASK HIM YOU KNOW HE HAD TO SAVE SAM. Death’s lesson lays it out simple.

I kind of disagree. I think LIFE has told Dean that he was wrong, misery and death following his deal have told him he was wrong. 40 years of hell and then seeing what he'd tried to avoid happen under his own eyes (re: Sam) has told him, and finally one year living his worst nightmare told him in no uncertain terms. But, yes, Death recapped it well here and Dean made different choices, not last taking off the ring to fix the consequences his mistake had created and thus avoid that a bus full of people would die with the nurse's husband.

But you, yourself said it in the previous paragraph, that this episode call-backs to Faith and John's deal are so evident, and those are things DONE to Dean. Misery and death have followed Dean 'since HE was supposed to die in Faith but a reverend, trough a Reaper, spared him his life, thus disrupting the natural order. And later, when Dean's number was called again, John messed with it and Tessa, another reaper, was forced to give Dean back his life (I wonder: did the YED possess a reaper when he brought back John from the dead in ITB?)

It goes back to what I think Dean's curse is: that you may live long to never stop suffering.

And to tie it back to our conversation about forgiveness. Has Dean ever forgiven John for that deal (and for burdening him with Sam's salvation)? Or are we forgiving John just because he couldn't live knowing that his son had died? (Reflection of Samuel, here, adn Dean's words about Mary being devastated are words that reflect how much Dean was devastated by John bringing him back). And, conversely, has Sam ever forgiven Dean for that deal? Because if that isn't addressed first, I cannot take seriously the fact that only Dean needs to learn a lesson and learn to forgive Sam. It feels like cheating.

I have no idea if the show will take these matter seriously, though the fact that they've gone to the roots of Sam and Dean's respective falls (end of season 2 for Dean, season 4 for Sam) tells me that it wants to, but they need to deal with it with the respect they deserve not forgetting certain parts of their own story. Because forgiveness is a two-way street and the first thing Dean and Sam have to do if they want to become brothers and equal partners again or for the first time. And yes, Dean needs to accept in no uncertain terms his mistake in making the deal, but Sam needs to accept how his own choices, his and his alone, created what they created.

\o/ I'm going to watch your video, now, because I ship Dean/Death like it's nobody's business. :D

Edited because LJ is making me crazy today and won't load. *crosses fingers*
Edited Date: 2010-12-16 12:07 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-01-27 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Ughhh, Anna, I totally had a huge response I wrote up for your comment here, and between dying computers, I have no idea where it went. :((((

So over a month later responding back....

But ack, yea, that's my insta capslock reactions for you! They are not very rational, no. *facepalm* As you can see from my Dean vid [which I was all flaily over to see you had watched and enjoyed even years later!! Whee!!], I totally agree with you that things have been DONE to Dean, it is SO true. In fact, I do think my favorite piece of this whole ep was that piece Tessa said about Death and misery following that girl around for the rest of her life, because it so easily can referenced in terms what's happened to Dean since Faith.

I agree, Dean is definitely not the only one to learn some lessons, I bet there's gonna be alot on Sam's part in the second half of the season. But in fact, I still don't think Sam has forgiven Dean for what he did there in AHBLII, which is half of why I was a flaily nut here about them referencing back to this so explicitly. And I'm not sure Dean has forgiven John either. Which I think is RIPE for controversy and character dealings. Because they both went through the same thing, only Dean kind of forgot his 'what's dead should stay dead' position as soon as he had to justify himself for putting the same curse on Sam. (Ooooo, what Tessa said about misery surrounding the girl can be described for Sam as well. This show and they're overlapping thematics!)

I think there's probably also some residual annoyance I still have left over from S3, in how they never properly dealt with this. When I though they should have. They never gave Sam the chance to voice his obvious problem with it all. And Dean to work out why he did it, despite hating his father for doing the same to him. And then Dean died, and Sam screwed up right and left, and the show's intense Dean POV has gone soft dealing with AHBL. From a character position. Plot has kept saying it, in the consequences, definitely, everything traces back to that, with the apocalypse and everything. But I've waited a very very long time for the show to have someone explicitly point it all out (basically since that vid!). So long, I'd forgotten about it all, hence my 5.22 reaction, and this episode reminding me about it all. I might be incredibly guilty of getting just a tad too easily excited when points come back from the dead like that! I get renewed hope that they might actually be prepared to deal with it now. These two boys have so many issues between them, but the only way anything is every going to be fixed is when they confront them head on. Reaching back to have this episode and Death remind Dean directly about how this change first started, it's just very exciting!! Dean pushes too many things aside in that silly head of his.

I'm also thinking it relates back to something I said earlier in S5 (in...one of the color metas, they all bleed together) about balance between Free Will and Fate. In that Free Will explicitly and unhindered, is not always a good thing. That the first act of Free Will was actually Lucifer's disobedience. And that free will instead must be paired with responsibility. [In fact, Gamble JUST mentioned this in her latest interview, creepily almost word for word, and made me do a 0_o at my whole flist.] So Death talking about balance and natural order of the universe made me do a Red and Blue Meta dance! I'm the silly fangirl who's way more anxious than she should be to see whether the colors are restored with Sam's soul. *IZ LAME* XD

Date: 2011-01-28 12:25 pm (UTC)
ext_13391: (Default)
From: [identity profile] smilla02.livejournal.com
No worries, bb. I've been oput of sort with everything - included SPN. SPN especially isn't appealling to me as it did before. The highly tense and painful situation of the first 11 episodes have had a weird effect on me and not a good one. Meh.

Anyhow, let's try to work out some enthusiasm via conversation. :D

I see what you say here, but I just don't see how reinforcing a lesson Dean has learned over and over since he came back from hell is necessary.

I mean, what would Sam ask for? That Dean admits he would never bring Sam back from the dead had he known the consequences personal and cosmic? Isnt't that evident enough from the storyline? And wouldn't that be extremly hypocritical from Sam considering that he was ready to do the same thing when Dean was dead and in hell? And what about John, or Mary, who made the same mistake. That's why I think forgiveness is not about confronting each other, but understanding why they both made certain choices and why they were wrong/weak/hurt etc. And I'm pretty sure Dean is the one who has had more time to reflect (actually I believe Dean realized in season 3 why he did the deal and it's been a continuous growth for him, see how he relates to John now and how he's recognized the damage John has done to him. I also think that Sam expressed his anger/hurt at his decision more than once in season 3).

I actually would be very pissed off at the show if it set out to teach Dean and only Dean another lesson.

I love the free will thing Sera talked about, and I think it's a good commentary on how the apocalypse was avoided: free will (Dean) by saying no to Michael and refusing the role heaven had set for him to stop the apocalupse + destiny (Sam) by saying yes to Lucifer and using the role heaven had set for him to stop the apocalypse.

Doesn't mean there are no consequences and Dean (and Sam, now that he has his soul back) need to deal with them. Like Castiel does, in a sense, with his war in heaven and the angels acting as if free will is this shiny new thing and means they can do/abuse their power as much as they want.

In theory this could be a good story, but in practice I can see a few ways in which the story goes that I wouldn't like and would be extremely repetitive, so I'm hoping to get surprised.

I'm also part of that contingent of fans who are hoping Dean gets something personal that is not Sam, tied to the whole story. I'm using the small font because apparently hoping for this is considered bad form and a sign of not caring for the show or for Sam. *rollseyes*

I too am looking forward to your color meta. Do you think colors will normalize now? I admit I haven't given much thought to the color meta (see above my slight detachment lately), but for an increase of the green associated with Castiel.

Date: 2011-01-29 10:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
I hear what you are saying completely, I agree with much of it, I think I'm just not making my point well. ;)

I think the thing is that calling what I want for Dean's character 'teaching Dean a lesson' is incorrect. I kinda loathe flat out TEACHING A LESSON things, because it implies it's from a place of wishing punishment on a character, when everything I want comes from a place of care and sympathy for the character. I don't want the show to do a wrist slap, I just want honest reflection? For psychological purposes, you know? I agree that the show has hammered home the Dean pays for his choices of ABHL over and over again, but so far it has been all negatively, in a way that does no good, leads to no resolution, just continues Dean's pain and self-loathing. The acknowledgment I'm looks for comes from the idea that something positive could come out if it for Dean in confronting his own headspace. I just really want to finally see Dean's self-worth issues dealt with in some way. And as much as I want something for the character more than just Sam, I can't see it happening without having the character revisit the main sources that fuel it all? The show posited Dean's actions in ABHL as a major throwaway of his own self, through Bobby's fight with him. So for that character issue to be dealt with, for some resolution, it technically requires that event to be referenced pretty directly.

So, it's more that I feel like his head could benefit from a re-examination of the past and actions they've both done that lead to Season five in order to fix what went wrong between them. Misunderstandings and miscommunication and the like? I just come from this place where I think everything one boy has gone through in some way is mirrored in the other. For everything there's an equal but opposite reaction kinda thing. And there's so much alienation and resentment between them without realizing they've undergone similar states? If that makes any sense? UGHHHH, I just want them BETTER again. Both of them, but these last 11 eps has really left me REALLY needing it for Dean, because emotionally the levels and depths of hurt and pain they brought him just about got to the 'UNBEARABLE' mark.

Unfortunately, the bane of my existence is the CW that keeps renewing this show and since it looks like a Season Seven is likely, it's likely the second half of this season won't touch this stuff. Dean will likely just be so happy to get Sam back, and so worried about the wall breaking at any time that we're gonna revert back into this S2ness that, while nice, is still pretty fake until we get that final season where they'll let the guys deal with their issues already.

GOD, SHOW WHY ARE YOU SO EXHAUSTING???? I feel you on the disenchantedness. I'm trying to adopt my 'everything else is cake' mentality again, but I have to keep telling myself that pretty constantly to not get too hung up on things. Following some of the quick spoilers have been keeping me entertained though.

Re: Colors. HAHHAH, no idea! I know I did that blue Sam post thing, but after that things went screwy, and I *COMPLETELY* lost track. All I remember is memorable yellow.

Date: 2011-01-29 11:12 pm (UTC)
ext_13391: (Default)
From: [identity profile] smilla02.livejournal.com
More tomorrow because I'm slightly drunk and definitely exhausted (though in general I think we were saying the same thing with different words and I'm glad we're looking at Dean and at the first 11 episodes the same way because I was starting to think I was falling into biased territory, the only difference is that I have seen that emotional exploration for Dean that you are talking about here - man we really need a breakdown of Dean in season 6).

Anyhow, I wanted to say this about Sam and blue.

Blue is the color of free will, rigt? And I think it was important and a flashing neon sign of that free will without responsability Sam sans soul represented and Sera referenced in her interview. Freedom in the most pure sense: doing what he wanted to do without caring for the consequences, without any pain or thought for anything that wasn't his own needs, what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it. If it's true, it's pretty clever.

And yes, Castiel. I'm very curious about what the story has in store for Cas.

Date: 2011-01-30 02:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Okay, glad to hear I'm not too off-based! I get worried when I feel like I've fallen into biased territory too. ;)

the only difference is that I have seen that emotional exploration for Dean that you are talking about here -
With this, do you mean, you think we're still working up to it? Or that it's already happened? I can see groundwork in the first half of this season. I'm just not sure we'll get the payoff they might have planned on at the beginning of the season, if we have a S7....

Blue is the color of free will, rigt?
Well, I posited last year that Free Will was red, because it was aligned with Hell [per the first act of free will being Lucifer's rebellion, but also Castiel's rebellion against Heaven with that blood-drawn sigil] and its extreme was marked by chaos and anarchy, while Fate was aligned with blue because it was aligned with Heaven and at its extreme was marked by loyality and tradition. So Dean was blue and Sam was red. But the colors have flipped this season in relation to heaven and hell, and Sam and Dean had flipped the first half. But whether or not they get flipped back when Sam's soul comes back and the cosmos doesn't, who knows! The shift has made things all so confusing! I have to keep looking back at the spectrum to make sense of things:

Generally, I think they used blue for unsouled!Sam to communicate his coldness and lack of empathy before they actually told us what was going on. Or at least signal his lack of life. And red was associated with Dean due to his new connections to life (via Ben and Lisa). [A smuch as I disliked the whole turning Dean into a vamp storyline, the idea that he got his own literal blood addiction tickles me silly!] But it all goes screwy from 6.06 and I lost track after that.

But what's really confusing? I'm not sure if free will denoted by red is the same thing as freedom, which is sometimes denoted by blue? [Not sure if SPN has, but it's been used elsewhere.] Some of it just depends on what you want to highlight. But responsibility falls in the blue box, along with trust, loyalty, confidence, and protection. Generally I think of free will with responsibility as the combo of blue and red. Aka the combo that saved the world! In my head at least. ;)

Which, DAMN rereading this quote, it really applies to First-Half-S6!Dean vs. unsouled!Sam, doesn't it?:
ANGELUS: Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping...waiting...and though unwanted...unbidden...it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us...guides us. Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love...the clarity of hatred...and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd truly be dead.

Which is nuts because it was very much the exact opposite last year.

Hey, didn't Castiel cut off Pestilence's ring? Aka Green? Sam cut off War's (Red). Dean got Death's (Blue). Ha and searching for Famine's color, superwiki reminded me about the bright light of a soul in the suitcase that the demons brought for Famine to eat! I totally forgot about that, that's kinda nice pre-S6 planning, show!

[sorry this got so long. AGAIN. I haven't thought about colors in a while, it gets me rambly!]

Date: 2011-01-31 05:24 pm (UTC)
ext_13391: (Default)
From: [identity profile] smilla02.livejournal.com
Dont even talk about long. See how wordy I get?

With this, do you mean, you think we're still working up to it? Or that it's already happened?

Definitely we're still working on it, so yes, just the playground. I'm not sure that a 7th season means not having that pay off - see above: too optimistic fangirl.

I'm just extremely fascinated by you colors talk. Like I said, I think they've flipped things around and the point is about finding a new balance of blue+red and what in those spectrum blue and red mean. I'm interested in seeing how the colors come back. I swear I'll give to them more attention.

Sorry I've been pretty confusing with my freedom talk. I'll try to explain. We know that Sam has always tried to attain freedom. The first time by running from a family in which he felt stifled and unsafe. Later we realize that as far Sam would run, his destiny was always going to follow him. Then Sam is trapped in a destiny but is able to flip it back on the face of those who wanted the apocalypse. Basically, much like Dean, but in a different way, Sam's never be free and yet freedom was what he wanted. So he comes back and he basically has total freedom, but an abomination of what freedom is because it's not tempered by emotion or care or true feelings. I have no idea how the color plays into this but all the talk about free will and responsability made me think. You're probably right, though, that blue was used to show coldness.

Love that quote! I tried to find something that would explain why robo!Sam was only living a half-life and why it's the whole package that makes life worth living and that's perfect. (Dean's attempt made me lol and sadface at the same time. :D)

Yes, the rings. But isn't Death's white? The whole pale horse, etc.

Date: 2011-01-31 05:06 pm (UTC)
ext_13391: (Default)
From: [identity profile] smilla02.livejournal.com
Here I am. Like I said, we're looking at things from the same perspective, but maybe with different background. I consider Dean's self-worth issues (which have taken another huge beating this season what with the rock and hard place he's been stuck in wrt to Sam and his soul and the whole story, really) a continuous exploring theme much like I consider Sam's debate about his monstruous nature a continuous exploring theme. I have no idea what they want to do in the second part of the season, but I'm crossing my fingers that both are going to be put to some sort of rest forever and the guys can move toward different conflicts. If there's something I've loathed about this season is that it hinges again on the 'what's wrong with Sam' I'm so over that storyframe it's not even funny. But I do realize that's mostly personal preference than objective judgment of the quality of the season.

I just really want to finally see Dean's self-worth issues dealt with in some way.

What I think we disagree on is that those issues start with the deal and All Hell Break Loose. I think that was the ending point of a lifetime of Dean being put in the position of 'fixing someone's messes' or put himself there because he feels like he's the one that has to do the fixing. So for me it's not confronting that deal that's important because I don't see that as the main issue, but one of the way Dean's issues have expressed themselves. The deal came after John's deal and the promise to kill Sam and John's command about having to kill/save Sam. It's the whole frame of Dean's entire existence since he was 4 year old that Dean should confront and I think he is doing that, in small steps and with back and forth (see how he reevaluate John, for example, and even his relationship with Sam at the end of season 5). But, it's not an easy task to confront the very basic of your entire existence.

I think something positive has come out of this season as in Dean's been effective and smart and done whatever he could with an impossible situation. BUT I don't trust the show to shift things again so that Dean did again a wrong choice. Considering he's the only character he's made any choice (Sam's ability to form any informed choice was severly compromised by his lack of soul, both in the good and in the bad way, in the sense that if Sam didn't know any better about feeding Dean to the vampires as bait then he didn't know any better about what was good for him wrt his soul). What I'd like would be an aknowledgement that Dean tried to do his best and for Dean the character to recognize that about himself: working with what information he had he did the only possible choice.

it's likely the second half of this season won't touch this stuff. Dean will likely just be so happy to get Sam back, and so worried about the wall breaking at any time that we're gonna revert back into this S2ness that, while nice, is still pretty fake until we get that final season where they'll let the guys deal with their issues already.

Stupid optimistic fangirl that I am, I'm not sure about canon not delving into that. Yes, I can see Dean just ignoring everything else in favore of being sure that Sam is all righ and worrying about the wall not crumbling, but maybe we'll get some characters exploration out of it. The way they've written robo!Sam is too close to how Sam acted in season 4 to be random and 6.11 with how it confronts Dean head on on his need to save everyone completed the reminder of Dean and Sam's respective issues.

Date: 2011-01-31 05:06 pm (UTC)
ext_13391: (Default)
From: [identity profile] smilla02.livejournal.com
What I dislike more than anything and that could put me off the show for good is another whole story about what's wrong with Sam which seems to be ready with the whole thread about the wall falling - will it will it not? At first, I was sure it wouldn't and character-wise it would make sense for Sam to learn to leave certain stuff alone, inserting an element of choice for Sam would be good (the command from Death about not scratching the wall because he wouldn't like what happens), but the show has been very predictable for me this season and I can see how wrong I can be wrt to that. I also don't think that a character needing the comfort and the cure of another character makes a good set-up for healing. And also, this is a genre show, they're always going to use genre-related plots.

In other words, I'm with you: the show is exhausting. I'm tired of being strung along with a conflict dragged between them that a SINGLE LONG CONVERSATION in which they both listen to each other would fix. It's getting close to bad storytelling, you know? Especially when I start to think but why didn't he just say this or that? Conflicts don't have to always come from within the relationship, they could come from outside for once. It makes me long for a different dynamic and makes me fantasizes on how good of a change it could be.

Argh! I have unloaded on you, sorry.

Back to the topic at hand, I would like to know how the colors are being used this seaon because I don't think they've been used with the same meaning as before (and also because I like reading you rambling geeking ou about colors *g*).

Date: 2011-01-29 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Ooo! But I didn't notice the increased green for Castiel! Because he's...in denial? CORRUPTED BY THE CIVIL WAR IN HEAVEN? Hahah, I have no idea, but it could be interesting as we get more on his storyline in the second half.

Date: 2011-01-03 12:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] night-on-bench.livejournal.com
Hi. Here's one "resouled Sam" fic for your collection: http://community.livejournal.com/treeshouse/19848.html#cutid1
It was written apparently before 6.11, so there's no Death in it and Sam actually gets his soul back from Crowley (still can't believe they killed the man *sigh*). But it doesn't really matter, anyway. The story is about finding humanity and learning to feel again step by step. And it's pretty decent writing, I think. Hope you like it. :))

Date: 2011-01-27 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amber1960.livejournal.com
I read this one a wee while ago, it is beautifully done.

Date: 2011-01-27 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zimshan.livejournal.com
Thanks for that one! I remember reading that when that meme first was done, but it's still one of my favorite S6 Sam-re!ensouled fics! Thanks for the link, I'll have to add it to the above!

Date: 2011-01-31 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] night-on-bench.livejournal.com
You're welcome, glad you found it useful. :)


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