META: 'How to End the World': Sharing Blame & Responsibilities in the context of Choice & Free Will

[zimshan]

I needed a post for this, it’s gotten too big and consumed too much of my brain this week. This started as a culmination of my thoughts on a number of metas this week in an attempt to understand my own position, and sorta exploded into a bunch of thinky thoughts of my own.


Up to this point, given what we've gotten so far, it’s sometimes hard to think that the show is doing anything but saying Dean is right, Sam was wrong. And I can't help but think, 'Wait! Is that really the whole story?'

This show has always, from day one, done something really awesome in their arguments and conversations. And that is maintaining that neither brother is completely right or completely wrong. I’ve always praised it. And I think the situation is no different here.

Blame is running around all over the place. Sam was obviously wrong. He had a choice and he made the wrong one. No, it was Dean’s fault really. He started it all. No, it was Sam’s fault, you can’t blame Dean. Blahblahblahlbahblah.

I’m gonna offer up an idea. How about this? Neither brother was completely right or completely wrong.

See, there’s been something that’s been bothering me since the finale about Choice and its alignment with Sam. Ruby told Sam he didn't need the feather to fly, that it was all him and his choices that got him there. And because we all think, if someone said it, it must be true, it gives everyone the freedom to blame Sam left and right. Sam can’t be trusted. Sam can’t even trust himself. He had choice, freewill and look at what he did with it. He chose wrong. Made bad choices. And on and on and on. I cringe when I hear all of this.

choice: noun. the act of choosing; selection; the right, power, or chance to choose; option; a person or thing chosen; the best or most preferable part

free will: noun. free and independent choice; voluntary decision; freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention; the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies

Because here's the thing. For a while now, the show has been using choice and free will interchangeably. Kripke tells us the show is about fate vs. free will. And the show constantly discusses a person's choice to not accept their predetermined fate. But if we look closely, it really not correct to say 'choice' is equivalent to 'free will'. In fact, 'free will' is a FREE choice. And a FREE choice is that which has not been determined by prior causes or divine forces.

I would submit that Ruby was misleading in her assertion that it was Sam's choices alone which led him to kill Lilith and start the apocalypse. (Again! Remember 'Jus in Bello'?)

Of course, there are two blames at work here. What Sam blames himself for: Rising Lucifer and starting the apocalypse. And what Dean blames Sam for: Betraying him by siding with Ruby over his own brother.

And so there are only two moments that really matter. Let's take them one at a time.

Starting The Apocalypse
If we're talking about what CHOICES Sam had made last year, leading him to start the apocalypse, I really think we need to look in terms of what choices Sam was given. What did he know? And Sam himself knew three things:
#1. Lilith was trying to bring on the apocalypse.
#2. He could obtain the power to stop/kill her.
#3. The angels were failing at trying to stop her.

Effectively, it was not just Ruby that fed him this information. The Angels backed this up. Bobby believed it. Sam believed it. Dean believed it. And ultimately, Ruby set up a Hobson's Choice for Sam, an apparently free choice in which only one option is really available. In this case, use this power to save the world, or do nothing and watch the world end. Given the information he was given, it's hard to think any of his free choices prior to the finale were necessarily 'wrong'. He was hurting no one else but demons, even helping save the people possessed, at the expense of his own. But he practically weighed out his choices and rationally arrived at the decision that it was worth it, given the Hobson's Choice he was given.

Sure, one could say that Sam was drinking demon blood, and that he should have known it would lead to nowhere good. But then one would also have to admit that Dean went to a demon to bring Sam back from the dead, and that he should have known that would lead to nowhere good as well. They’re equal on that plane, imo.

And so I would submit that, in the end there was only one choice of Sam’s that really mattered. Deciding to drink the nurse dry. Up to that point, he had hurt no one but himself. This was his last choice to go through with it. Sacrifice an innocent to supposedly save the world. The very same decision he was faced with in 'Jus in Bello' that Dean had so ferociously said no to. And Sam knew it. "Maybe Dean was right all along." So he takes one last moment to decide whether he should do this. To make his choice. He stops, and listens to Dean's voicemail to hinge his choice on.

And that choice was taken from him.

I wholeheartedly believe that had Sam received the correct voicemail of Dean apologizing and calling him his brother, he would not have gone through with it. It was in receiving the fake message provided by the angels with Dean disowning him and prepared to kill him, that he decided to go through with his suicide mission. The fact that it was the angels that fed him that message only confirms that Sam’s last choice was not really HIS choice at all. He was robbed of that last choice, by not being given the truth. Had Dean's real message gotten to Sam at that moment, he would not have felt like he had nothing left in the world. And thus willing to destroy himself in “saving” the world. Drinking that nurse was Sam’s suicide. He didn’t think he’d survive killing Lilith. The fact that he did and now has to deal with the consequences of it is something he had not been prepared for, (and in fact, similar to Bobby's own attempted suicide last episode).

So really, we can conclude the brothers fracture led to the apocalypse. I think Dean realizes that. Had he not left Sam, it wouldn't have happened. He says "we caused this mess, we're gonna have to clean it up". He owns that responsibility with Sam.

What Dean takes exception to is Sam choosing Ruby over his own brother, as he says.

The problem is, it's not exactly the full story of how last year unfolded.

Picking Sides
My default mode while watching SPN has always been watching and understanding under Dean's shoulders. I'm not sure whether it's because my own POV matches Dean's or whether it's the structure of the show as a whole. Nonetheless, it happens. So, after watching 4.21 last May absolutely CRUSHED for Dean beyond belief, I decided to rerun the whole season in an attempt to understand Sam's state of mind in Season Four before the finale aired. What I found surprised me completely.

If the MOTW's of Season Four showed anything, it's that monsters and bullies are MADE. Out of their own choices, *and* the choices of people around them. We saw this in 4.04 when Travis's attempt to kill the man's wife was the last trigger to turn him into a monster. In 4.05, the Dracula!Shapeshifter lamented about his father beating him with a shovel and calling him monster, people finding him despite running, and being responsible. In 4.06, the sheriff and his friends brutal killing of Luther made him into a monster. In 4.08, the bullied boy wishes to become superstrong in order to bully his oppressors. In 4.13, Dirk was a kind boy who's mother's death left him with a father who was distant, leading to Dirk bullying others weaker than him.

Now, take a look at some moments last season:

DEAN: So you've been using your, uh, freaky ESP stuff?
SAM: No.
DEAN: You sure about that? Well, I mean, now that you've got... immunity, whatever the hell that is... just wondering what other kind of weirdo crap you've got going on.
SAM: Nothing, Dean. Look, you didn't want me to go down that road, so I didn't go down that road. It was practically your dying wish.
DEAN: Yeah, well, let's keep it that way.
- 4.01

SAM: "Killin' alot more demons than that lately"
DEAN: "Not anymore-- the smarter brother's back"
- 4.01

DEAN: "Okay, stop right now, whatever the hell is going on here, it's happening to us now, I can't get ahold of Bobby and so if you're not thinking answers, don't think at all!"
- 4.02

DEAN: "Do you even know how far off the reservation you've gone? How far from normal? From human?...If I didn't know you, I'd want to hunt you"
- 4.04

DEAN: "Cas said that if I don't stop you, he will. Do you see what that means? That means that GOD doesn't want you doing this."
- 4.04

SAM: You don’t trust me.
DEAN: No! Because this could be the Siren talking.
SAM: Look, just tell me where you are. I’ll come meet you and we’ll figure things out.
DEAN: No.
SAM: You serious?
DEAN: I wish I weren’t. I gotta handle this, Sam. By myself.
- 4.15

You see what he's doing there? He's automatically claiming superior ground in order to justify silencing Sam's own thoughts. No listening wanted. This is the way it is.

In my view, Dean handled Sam all wrong all season. He tried to act just like John in handling Sam without remembering, 1) It didn't work the first time, and 2) Sam is a full grown adult.

What I found amazing under rewatch of last season, is that Dean? Sides with Castiel over his brother incredibly early on in the season. He's hardly accepted angels exist, let alone just meeting the guy, and already he's believing every word. The MOMENT Cas says, "Your brother is down a dangerous road. Stop him, or we will." He believes it. It's like John whispering that Secret in his ear, and it repeats over and over in his head, churning more and more fear, all season long. But here's the thing. For Cas and Heaven? That was the plan. It was as important for Ruby to convince Sam to drink the demon blood as it was to inject that fear into Dean, for the apocalypse to be successful.

Therefore, while I hate that he did it, I can understand Sam eventually siding with Ruby and keeping the lies going as he did. Dean was alienating him, and Ruby was there to turn to. She was brilliant in that she gave Sam what Dean could no longer give. She listened and backed him up in a way Dean once had, but hadn't since he came back from Hell. (Of course, we could say that that superiority complex Dean suddenly held over Sam came from a deeper place of feeling whipped by Hell. Overcompensation, if you will. But this isn't a psychiatry post.)

Then Dean finds out about the demon blood, and he does the worst possible thing he could do: Alienate Sam more.

In this case, I find that the most important moment is the 4.21 honeymoon suite scene. Not surprising there.

But there's one particular moment that keeps running through my head: Sam throwing down the knife on the bed, and begging Dean to come with them. Even after Dean had locked him up in that panic room, even after the whole season, it still takes my breath away that Sam so graciously still asks Dean to be with him on this.

I'd say the world's fate is sealed here:

DEAN: "Fine, that's great, but the demon bitch is the deal breaker. You kiss her goodbye, and we can go right now."


Another Hobson's Choice for Sam. My way, or the highway.

And his response:
SAM: "I can't. I need her to help me kill Lilith."

Had Sam left Ruby at Dean’s request, he wouldn’t have had enough juice to kill Lilith. Had Dean acquiesced and let Ruby come with them, Dean would have been there with Sam when Ruby told him he had to drink a girl dry, and Sam wouldn’t have done it. The last minute decision scene where Sam took out his phone to listen to Dean’s voicemail BEFORE he made the decision showed that much. It was alienation that brought him to that point.

Should we fault Dean for siding with Castiel when he was simply a pawn in the heavenly game meant to feed into his fears and alienate Sam, thus pushing Sam to that final decision? No? Then neither should we blame Sam for siding with Ruby when he was simply a pawn in her game to free Lucifer as well. Both chose wrong choices shaped as right choices by the apocalypse's architects.

Now, does this mean Sam shouldn't blame himself or take responsibility for what he did? Of course not. My point merely is that that as two people occupying the same space of work and life, actions and words toward one another have consequences. To each of them. And that by absolving Dean completely of responsibility of their fracture, we are ignoring another layer of complexity in the narrative.

In the end, it's going to come down to the boys figuring this out. It's going to be a long, painful haul, but eventually, by talking again, seeking understanding between each other, and comparing stories, they are going to realize with startling revelation just how identically they were played, both pieces in Heaven and Hell's chess match. If I had to bet money, I'd say finding out about that voicemail is gonna be the last straw in them deciding together that they refuse to play someone else's game again. They'll do it their way, take their own free will by the horns, spit in the face of destiny, and figure out how to kill Lucifer on their own. Together.

'Cause in the end, that's the only victory that matters. That love can conquer all. (Hey, who knew meta could be schultzy? Jeeze.)

ETA: I understand, in the style this meta is, being a response to those that have come before it (which basically since the S4 finale have assigned blame and wrongdoing to Sam based on his choices and characterized Dean as an inculpable victim), some might have mistakenly thought this was merely doing the opposite. This came out of my fingers randomly while responding to one of the comments below, but goes a long way to explaining how I see the show, so I'm reposting it here to make sure my position is clear:

I do think seeing both stories is important to seeing how well-constructed the show as a whole has been and to ignore one side to be missing half the point: That the show is essentially about humanity. How we rise and how we fall. How we try when we are beaten down. How we fuck up with the best and worst of intentions. This show, from day one, has been intentionally GROUNDED in a reality that few sci-fi/horror shows allow themselves to be. And I love it precisely for that.

SO WHO IS READY FOR TONIGHT?!?!?! AHHHH, WINCHESTER DAY!!!

Comments

[astri13.livejournal.com]

Had Dean acquiesced and let Ruby come with them,

The thing was, Sam offered "come with US, not Ruby coming with THEM" because it was clear that in Sam's mind he needed himself and he needed Ruby but he didn't need Dean because there was nothing Dean could bring to this fight. He was "too weak". In fact, Sam probably imagined leaving Dean behind for protection when confronting Lilith.

He wanted Dean to come to lend validation to it all. So if Dean had come, he would have had the weakest position of them all. Ruby's info about Lilith, the nurse, everything was never in doubt for Sam so if Dean had argued against killing the nurse or had attacked Ruby once more, his word wouldn't have carried any weight.

That is what Season 4 showed me, that in a reverse of "Jus in Bello" or NRFTW, Dean's words or presence or anything wasn't enough anymore to sway Sam from something.

Ruby accumulated that loyalty by telling Sam what he wanted to hear, by chearleading him on and telling him he was the only one and could accomplish with the powers he saw as a curse initially what noone else could. Now, I'm very glad that Dean does not do that because yes, he should treat Sam like an adult - and compared to earlier Seasons did much more so in Season 4 IMO - but he should not be his mindless cheerleader either. He should keep some balls in the relationship.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

The thing was, Sam offered "come with US, not Ruby coming with THEM" because it was clear that in Sam's mind he needed himself and he needed Ruby but he didn't need Dean because there was nothing Dean could bring to this fight. He was "too weak". In fact, Sam probably imagined leaving Dean behind for protection when confronting Lilith.

He wanted Dean to come to lend validation to it all. So if Dean had come, he would have had the weakest position of them all. Ruby's info about Lilith, the nurse, everything was never in doubt for Sam so if Dean had argued against killing the nurse or had attacked Ruby once more, his word wouldn't have carried any weight.

Yes, but that ignores the weight Sam gave to that voicemail at the last moment. Listening to that woman's screams, dealing with the idea that he was going to be responsible for killing her was getting to him. He was feeling like Dean was right. He said as much. When they stopped, he told Ruby to wait. He needed time to think. To decide whether he truly wanted to do this. And he takes out his cell phone to hear Dean's voicemail.

I assert, and I realize it's just my opinion, but I believe that had he gotten Dean's real voicemail, he would not have gone through with it. The angels obviously thought so, otherwise they won't have seen a reason to change it.

So, had Dean BEEN THERE, with Sam, when Ruby told him he'd have to take this woman's life? Had Sam not felt the total and complete alienation of Dean punctuated by that voicemail? He would not have had the willingness to go through with this Suicide Mission. In the end, it's identical to Dean and his own self-worth at AHBL II without Sam. His purpose was to be a brother. When the relationship is severed, the purpose is gone, and all he had left was a Suicide Mission option.

[astri13.livejournal.com]

I assert, and I realize it's just my opinion, but I believe that had he gotten Dean's real voicemail, he would not have gone through with it.

I don't think so on account of him being convinced that it was necessary to kill Lilith to save the whole world. And Ruby told him it was necessary to bleed the nurse. Maybe, if Sam had been too squeamish, she would have simply killed her and presented Sam with a fait accompli and a "now her death should have a purpose at least." She had adapted a few times along the way.

I believe had Sam heard the real voicemail he would have had hope again for an "after" but his determination on his goal was set to me. Now if someone had told him that Lilith was the last seal, then yes, that would have been cause to stop immediately. But the world was at stake - in his mind - if Dean hated him or not.

The angels like Ruby were probably feeling the pressure there but I don't think they are totally up on human behaviour. Their dealings with Dean show it.

And if Dean had been there, then he would have undercut his own position. Sam doubted himself at the beginning of the Finale because of the way they had parted. If Dean had tucked his tail and come with them, there would have been no reason to.

And while of course Dean would have protested the nurse killing, they had, at this point, a near Season long argument of Sam thinking Dean was too passive, sticking his head in the sand and not up to the task or hard decisions. This would have looked like more of that.

In the end, it's identical to Dean and his own self-worth at AHBL II without Sam. His purpose was to be a brother. When the relationship is severed, the purpose is gone, and all he had left was a Suicide Mission option.

I was very harsh with Dean back then about the deal. My first reaction was "you deserve to go to hell for your own stupidity". I didn't really have empathy for it. And John, who was a major factor in that deal, I don't attribute him with one iota of accountablity for the action. Dean washed his record clean with me by actually going and receiving immense punishment.

I'm afraid I'm equally harsh with Sam now.

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

I disagree that if Dean had been there, it would have changed anything. In fact I think the fact that Dean wasn't there is the only reason Sam paused to stop and think even for that moment is because Dean wasn't there for him to "prove" anything to(and no I dont think the voicemail ultimately would have made any difference, all it takes is a well-placed insult to get Sam to react how they want, Ruby just would have done something like that sooner, implying that Sam is weak for relying on Dean, etc).

I think they only changed the message as extra insurance, I don't think it was necessary.

Sam heard Dean pounding on the door and all it took was being called a name by Lilith to make him completely ignore and block out Dean. This was shown earlier in the season as well - that all takes to set Sam is the right word. That was what Afterschool Special showed. When he beat up that "bully" - the reason he finally did it wasn't to protect anyone it was because the bully called him a name. And then Sam went overboard, not only did he beat the guy up physically but he called him "Dirk the Jerk". Sam in essense became the bully himself.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

I can not in my mind, see Sam with all good conscience suck another innocence woman's blood dry, while Dean was watching. Or with Dean even knowing. I see him giving into this act as his Suicide Mission, when he had nothing else left but to save the world before Dean killed him. "You turned yourself into a monster, and now you're not going to bite" was Lilith's whole line, and played into that idea. The man just underwent several forms of hallucinations the last two days, if that where me, and I heard the most important person in my life calling my name seconds before I was going to commit myself to ruin, I'd have thought I was hallucinating that too.

I accept that my perception of this hypothetical is objective and that other possibilities could be true as well, depending what your own perspective is. But I believe it is a possible hypothetical, nonetheless.

[blackcat333-99.livejournal.com]

Good food for thought. I would, however, disagree with this:

that choice was taken from him.

(concerning the moment Sam crossed that final line, killing Nurse Cindy). Why? Because Dean shouldn't have to tell Sam that that was wrong, that that was crossing the line into being a true monster. Really? This moment wasn't about lack of choice, but about conscience (to me). Dean said it earlier in the episode, pleading with Castiel in the Green Room. "There is a right and there is a wrong here, and you know it." You know it. Key words. Dean may have acted as a prod on Castiel's conscience, but the fact is Cas already knew the right answer, deep down. Otherwise, he'd have gone with what he believed was the "right" thing to do in letting Dean stay locked up. True, Sam didn't get that final prod to his conscience, but, as you point out -- Sam is an adult. If his choices are dependant upon his brother to serve as his conscience... that failure is on Sam. Deep down he knew better. And that's where reactions to Sam's choices become an interesting mix of both Dean's poor handling of Sam and Sam's excuse to ignore what Dean was telling him. I agree that Dean has done his share of poor choices and ill-judged reactions to Sam, but I guess for me at the end of the day Sam is responsible for his own conscience. If he chose to think that doing evil (murder) could accomplish good, then that tells me something interesting not only about his choices but about his conscience. He did still have the choice to say no to Ruby, and refuse to murder. He could have trusted that Dean would (to the best of his then-current info) somehow stop Lilith, as the angels were saying would happen. Free will is a terrifying thing without Jiminy Cricket.

[blahbaby.livejournal.com]

that doing evil (murder) could accomplish good

Excuse me, but I just have to ask, if Sam drinking the Nurse's blood was in effect murder, (I'd plead it down to involuntary manslaughter, Sam thought the fate of the world was at stake) how do you feel about Ruby's demon killing knife that Dean and Sam use without compunction. Aren't they in effect committing murder every time they use it to kill a person possessed by a demon? They're killing a demon, which is good, but can't it be considered murder every time? They know there's an innocent person possessed in there, but Dean doesn't hesitate to slash throats or stab people in the chest with it. Where is the line drawn? Sam thought the whole world and its population was on the line, Dean stabbed the demon with Ruby in the chest in Lucifer Rising, because his life was on the line. Sam's the only one that showed hesitation this season (before he went 'evil') and told Dean using the knife kills the host, his power just gets rid of the demon, but Dean doesn't seem to hesitate anymore about using the knife. So what does that say about Dean?

I'm not saying Dean's wrong, but if one instance is taken into account I have to consider them all.

[blackcat333-99.livejournal.com]

Fair enough question. I use the word murder in the case of Nurse Cindy because Sam had other options. In all the other cases you cite, Sam and/or Dean were reacting to immediate peril -- turning the use of the knife into an act of self-defense. This time, however, Sam premeditatively chose to cut her throat to service his own agenda. He could have, in fact, SAVED her if he had chosen differently. What was it GhostMeg charged the boys with (Dean, specifically, but it applies to both Dean AND Sam -- especially Sam, this season), back in 4.02?

Dean: We didn't know.
GhostMeg: No... You just attacked. Did you ever think there was a girl in here? No. You just charged in,slashing and burning. You think you're some kind of hero? ... Because all you were thinking about was your family, Your revenge,and your demons! 50 words of latin a little sooner,and I'd still be alive.

So. Sam didn't know that he was wrong about saving the world. But he DID know that he could have saved this one person from possession, but he didn't. 50 words of Latin, heck he could have even used his super special demon powers to do the trick -- since isn't that why he justified using them in the past?

Really, a lot of my holding Sam accountable for his actions has nothing to do with having a favorite brother or any of those pointing fingers at who screwed up worse blame games. A big part for me is about Nurse Cindy. Screaming for help, for Sam to let her go -- she didn't volunteer to be a sacrifice, she wanted to be saved. Sam took all her choices away from her. Where's her right to free will being protected?

[blahbaby.livejournal.com]

I was going to respond, but I think zimshan said it better than me in her comment. Sam thought the world was in immediate peril, there was one seal left and Lilith was about to break it any minute. Save this one person who was going to end up dying already or save everyone? It's a tough choice morally, and I can't say it was the wrong one either way because what if killing Lilith had stopped the apocalypse. She'd still be dead but the world is saved, but it doesn't make the decision any better. The fact that they even had Sam hesitating about it was pretty important. You can compare it to Jus in Bello, they didn't sacrifice the virgin and found their own way to get out of there and save everyone, but then what happened? Lilith showed up and ended up killing everyone anyway. Sure, Sam and Dean get to feel better about their moral choice, but in the end Nancy's still dead. Seems to me like it was a no-win situation either way, they played it.

correction for accuracy... sorry. :)

[blackcat333-99.livejournal.com]

Oops. I failed to account for Dean's attacks on Ruby during the season. Killing her in 4.22 clearly doesn't fall under the ageis of murder, because at this point he knew the meatsuit was empty.

However, yes, he did attack her in 4.04 without that knowledge, and without being in immediate peril.

And yes, had he succeeded I would have called that murder of a girl who might have been able to be saved. So -- I agree, Dean's not right about all his choices or actions. I was focusing on Sam and his choices for purposes of this discussion. But then, I've long thought Dean has had moments of sociopathic potential, so that's never been really question in my mind. Does that help clarify? :)

Re: correction for accuracy... sorry. :)

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Dean never tried to kill Ruby until AFTER Bobby had already killed her in 4.04. They knew her body was dead already, Bobby gave her a kill shot pretty much. Dean didn't attack Ruby in 4.04. Dean didn't see her, I don't think until the beginning of 4.10? Something like that.

Re: correction for accuracy... sorry. :)

[blackcat333-99.livejournal.com]

Bobby shot Blonde Ruby in 3.04 (Sin City), true. But Ruby 2.0 was in a new meatsuit and as far as Dean knew at the time he attacked her in 4.04 (Metamorphosis) the new body was a different girl and he had no idea whether her body had been damaged beyond repair or not.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Ack, and that's where I admit I messed up my own logic. I should have said 'free choice' was taken from him. It's the difference between choice and free choice here, and my point was that he was robbed of his own free will by his choice being determined by external or divine forces.

Of course, we see how Dean chooses to see things, and I see things the same myself. Murder of one to save the whole is still murder, and violates that moral code. That is, to me personally. But I am not someone with the weight of being given the power to stop a big calamity, and neither was Dean (no matter what the angels told him). This really just started as an exercise of logic, to understand where Sam was, and what choices he was given, to understand his own blame and responsibility. Perhaps it became just abit more convoluted than I intended.

If his choices are dependant upon his brother to serve as his conscience... that failure is on Sam.
Hmm. I agree this is true. However how much of our choices are we responsible for if the full choice of the situation is purposely not given to us? I don't believe there is a full answer for this. My perception is that Sam did know up front what Ruby wanted him to do was wrong (re: killing the nurse). His hesitancy shows that much. And upon hearing (fake!)Dean say he was gonna kill him, he succumbed himself to a Suicide Mission.

Was that fair to the nurse who lost her life in the crossfire? Of course not. This was her life that he took. But in Sam's mind I believe he again played a numbers game. She'd be dead if he didn't save the world, and so would Dean and every other person on earth. He was thinking on a larger scale. I'm not saying he wasn't wrong. Just that the ability to make his own free choice in this matter was taken from him.

Sam's own numbers game is something that is a real-life practice for numbers of people involved in making such high-stakes decisions all over the world, military leaders and presidents/country leaders alike. One person lost to save the good of many. How should they be judged? It sounds horrible, but that guilt is on you if you had the chance to save everyone at the expense of one, and bypassed it, only for many more people to die because of your hesitancy. Sam and Dean exercised this at every point in S3 where they'd rather use the knife and kill the demon and the person inside before risking it gets loose and kills more people.

I guess my point is that it's not so cut and dry here. Which is what makes it so difficult to dissect and meta, I guess.

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

I don't see anything about sharing the blame here. I see you taking accountability from Sam and placing it on Dean.

And I find it mind boggling how you found a moral decision like MURDER could be placed on someone else's shoulders by a simple phone call, no matter how distressing.

ETA: Imma ready for tonight!! *_~

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Well, because this was kinda constructed in response to other metas laying the blame on Sam and away from Dean, I didn't want to repeat. But my intention is not to take accountability and place it on Dean. I'm saying accountability lies with the angels and demons. Which we all know, and yet I feel the extent to which both boys were played has been unexplored. We all know the way in which Ruby played Sam, so I saw no need to go into it. What is less explicit is how Dean was played by the angels who fed him his fear like Ruby fed Sam blood. I apologize if that didn't come forward right.

Your next contention is similar to blacklid and because I'm not sure I properly stated my own intention and view, my response is similar.

And I find it mind boggling how you found a moral decision like MURDER could be placed on someone else's shoulders by a simple phone call, no matter how distressing.

As viewers of the show, we see how Dean chooses to see things, and I see things the same myself. Murder of one to save the whole is still murder, and violates that moral code. That is, to me personally. But I am not someone with the weight of being given the power to stop a big calamity, and neither was Dean (no matter what the angels told him). This post really just started as an exercise of logic, to understand where Sam was, and what choices he was given, to understand his own blame and responsibility. Perhaps it became just abit more convoluted than I intended.

Yes, I believe it is true that we can not place blame on Dean for Sam's own murder. That much is crazy. As I said above, my point is not to put blame on Dean, but the angels and demons who have played the brothers like chess pieces. How much of our choices are we responsible for if the full choice of the situation is purposely not given to us? I don't believe there is a full answer for this. My perception is that Sam did know up front what Ruby wanted him to do was wrong (re: killing the nurse). His hesitancy shows that much. And upon hearing (fake!)Dean say he was gonna kill him, he succumbed himself to a Suicide Mission.

Was that fair to the nurse who lost her life in the crossfire? Of course not. This was her life that he took. But in Sam's mind I believe he again played a numbers game. She'd be dead if he didn't save the world, and so would Dean and every other person on earth. He was thinking on a larger scale. I'm not saying he wasn't wrong. Just that the ability to make his own free choice in this matter was taken from him.

Sam's own numbers game is something that is a real-life practice for numbers of people involved in making such high-stakes decisions all over the world, military leaders and presidents/country leaders alike. One person lost to save the good of many. How should they be judged? It sounds horrible, but that guilt is on you if you had the chance to save everyone at the expense of one, and bypassed it, only for many more people to die because of your hesitancy. Sam and Dean exercised this at every point in S3 where they'd rather use the knife to kill the demon and the person inside before risking it gets loose and kills more people.

I guess my point is that it's not so cut and dry here. Which is what makes it so difficult to dissect and meta, I guess. Nonetheless, I needed to organize my own brain abit and at least attempt before the new episode tonight. Sorry, you found it boggling for your own mind. ;)

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

I still don't agree, but wouldn't it be AWESOME if Show were going for parallels here? Forcing Sam, as a righteous man, to shed innocent blood in front of a convent of all places. Just a thought.

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

I don’t know if it’s possible for me to fully explain how much I loved your post! These are the thoughts that had been rattling around inside my brain for months now, only you were able to articulate and support them far better than me.

I too was struck by the scene in the honeymoon suite when Sam begged Dean to come with him, to help him do what needed to be done, only to be issued an ultimatum. I’d also cringed during the scenes when Sam was going through detox on his own in Bobby’s panic room—to be caged like an animal by the person you’re closest to in the world and then left there to suffer alone…

…man. That was tough.

For me, Dean held Sam at arm’s length throughout Season 4. Part of that was understandable, given what the man had been through. However, what Sam had suffered while Dean was in hell—particularly coming on the heels of the events portrayed in Mystery Spot—should not be discounted.

I also liked how you highlighted the issue of choice. I know Kripke has gone on record as saying this is a central theme for SPN (choice/free will vs. fate). I can’t help but wonder though which side he falls on. Right now, I betting the man is a fatalist. Because Sam is all about choice, yet it doesn’t seem to do him much good.

He has fought against what seems to have been his fate since childhood. Unlike Dean, who appears to embrace the life of a hunter, Sam has never been comfortable with that lifestyle and its limitations. He illustrated that when he was quite young. We’re told how he repeatedly butted heads with John only to ultimately leave his family, alienating them (though clearly still loving them), and choosing a normal life over a fated one.

Yet, that choice proved to be unfortunate (particularly when you think about how you never really know what you’ve got till it’s been taken from you—what must it have been like to have those three good years with Jess and Stanford, and then have to go back to life on the road, hunting monsters with Dean). The choices continued—Sam was killed in AHBL because he chose not to betray his essential goodness by killing Jake. He chooses and chooses again in Mystery Spot, desperate to save Dean, yet nothing works. And finally, of course, he chooses to damn himself to save the world, only to have it backfire.

I’m not sure what that says about Sam and the world the Winchesters inhabit. It’s like neither of them can escape their destinies.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks! I can see how confusing it was to some people, but I'm glad it was a post that could work for you! I know it was an exercise of my own mind of all the issues that have been driving me batty since the finale, and so organizing them brought me a solace so I can watch the rest of the season in peace. Or at least as much as we can in this show. ;)

I too was struck by the scene in the honeymoon suite when Sam begged Dean to come with him, to help him do what needed to be done, only to be issued an ultimatum.

This really was the moment that I decided I had to rewatch the season, with Sam's POV in mind. Because after everything that had happened, the idea that he still seemed so practical and calm and logical and WAY more together than I ever would have thought he'd be kinda blew my mind. But then again, I had been watching the season with a Dean state of mind, fearful of what Sam could become, believing all the hype the angels fed Dean. It was through rewatching the entire season on Sam's side that his actions become so understandable. I really do think more people should try to do the same, because it is quite an exercise!

So while everyone was convinced we'd have a full-out-EVIL!Sam at the end of the finale, I had bet that we wouldn't. And it turned out, he did accomplish his task, killing Lilith, without becoming evil. Sam is still Sam. Only, regrettably, he started the apocalypse with it.

I also liked how you highlighted the issue of choice. I know Kripke has gone on record as saying this is a central theme for SPN (choice/free will vs. fate). I can’t help but wonder though which side he falls on. Right now, I betting the man is a fatalist. Because Sam is all about choice, yet it doesn’t seem to do him much good...It’s like neither of them can escape their destinies.

I think at some point, there has to be a victory for free will against fate, and seeing how it's set up now, I'd bet money on it that he's leading up to that last victory of the series as a victory for free will to live on. While perhaps the boys do not...but beside the point!

When you list all that has gone wrong for Sam despite his choices, it really just kills you to think about. That's what was so utterly devastating in the finale and still is now, especially now that he's dealing with it. Nothing ever goes right for poor Sammy! :(

But I'll always remember Kripke early early on had said that he'd constructed Sam somehow in a mirror of his own. Wanting to break away from the family of "mechanics", do his own thing. (Didn't he also say somewhere that Teacher and Little!Sam convo was ripped right out of his own life?) So I just CAN'T see it end badly for Sam (or Choice) in the end. It just looks like Kripke's gonna make it a really long road toward finally getting his victory, I see. The harder the struggle, the sweeter the reward, I guess?

[blahbaby.livejournal.com]

ITA!!!! ITA!!! Hehe. I am also way psyched for new boys tonight. Although, their angst will probably break my heart some more. Damn them.

But yeah, I definitely agree that in the end, Sam's choice wasn't a choice, and hopefully this will eventually be addressed on the show or I'll feel like an idiot. They can decide to play fast and loose with it, in order to alienate Sam even more. I wouldn't discount Lucifer possibly possessing him later in the season. I'm starting to think that every choice Dean's been forced to make on the 'save Sam or kill him' front has been a red herring, and the real choice is going to come out sometime this season. I can't believer it's as easy as well, I didn't save Sam and he ended the world, but I didn't have to kill him either. Although, I hope it is!

But you're reasoning about the angels manipulating Dean with the stop him or we will is right. The problem is the angels are getting away with that because they were right. Sam did end up going down a dangerous path and end the world, but it seems like it's forgotten that that is exactly what they wanted to happen. That was their smartest move ever and I wonder if there's an even higher up angel than Zachariah in the hierarchy because master strategist he is not, so far. But hey, the writers came up with Ruby being some evil mastermind the whole time, so maybe I shouldn't discount Zach. He might be treating Dean like this for a reason. Maybe he's one of the angels on Uriel's side with the yay for Lucifer, and he's all just putting on a show about wanting Dean to actually stop Lucifer. Perhaps he's counting on Dean's stubbornness.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

But you're reasoning about the angels manipulating Dean with the stop him or we will is right. The problem is the angels are getting away with that because they were right. Sam did end up going down a dangerous path and end the world, but it seems like it's forgotten that that is exactly what they wanted to happen. That was their smartest move ever

The angels have been absolutely BRILLIANT, haven't they? So willy they've been. (And Kripke just confirmed in the 'In the Beginning' commentary that the angels also caused the YED to notice Mary with Castiel's whole Dean trip to the past, which caused everything else to happen in one closed timeloop, if you can wrap you head around that. It makes my head spin to try to pin closed timeloop ideas down. But the idea that Kripke willingly made the angels responsible for every piece of misfortune the Winchester family has experienced in life, says ALOT about Kripke's intentions and endgame.)

He might be treating Dean like this for a reason. Maybe he's one of the angels on Uriel's side with the yay for Lucifer, and he's all just putting on a show about wanting Dean to actually stop Lucifer. Perhaps he's counting on Dean's stubbornness.

Oooo. This whole Michael sword thing sounds like red-herring to me. The idea that the whole 'save-sam-or-kill-him' AND that could be wrong is a FASCINATING NOTION!

All I know is Kripke's got a lot to fix in a year, and I'm biting my nails in anticipation over how he's gonna play it! EE!

[blahbaby.livejournal.com]

Really? I had no idea that Kripke confirmed that the angels were the whole reason why YED noticed Mary in the first place. This whole plan to end the world goes back a long time. So yeah, wow definitely wily masterminds. Another thought I had, even though Kripke and Co. will probably never do this because so much of fandom loves Castiel, but if family is so important should it be discounted that Lucifer is in fact, Castiel's brother? Castiel and Lucifer are family. Nothing would come of it probably, but it's an interesting dynamic to play up.

Alright, I'll stop throwing my crazy ideas out there in your comments now. But now I am way more think-y on all of this. But yeah, I definitely can't wait to see how it's all going to play out. Go boys!

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Another thought I had, even though Kripke and Co. will probably never do this because so much of fandom loves Castiel, but if family is so important should it be discounted that Lucifer is in fact, Castiel's brother? Castiel and Lucifer are family. Nothing would come of it probably, but it's an interesting dynamic to play up.

Oh man. Cas parallels Dean. Lucifer parallels Sam. God parallels John. Kripke better not get wind of that.

[blahbaby.livejournal.com]

Cas parallels Dean.

This, because Cas just now in 5.02 wants to find God, and if God, parallels John and there have been hints of this, is Cas paralleling Dean's journey in S1. Dean comes to Sam in the Pilot saying, 'We need to find Dad'. John's missing, now God is missing. Now is Dean starting to parallel Sam? He's reacting the same way Sam did, God's fine, God doesn't care. Sam was Dad's fine, this isn't the first time... o_O

Okay, seriously I will stop now.

The thing about brothers...

[krisreinke.livejournal.com]

I think we are overlooking ( or undercounting) the whole 'brother' thing. (I had this revelation re: Gabriel's speach.)
Sam & Dean - brothers. Brother's who are being pushed to fight/kill each other. But when ( Biblically speaking) was this ever a good idea? Always disaster. So moral drama there.

As said below - Lucifer is ALSO a brother. Uriel is a brother. All those angels who are fighting are killing their brothers/sisters.

A big fight scene - win who will - is NOT a good conclusion. The only *moral* outcome is to reconcile the brothers - and I don't mean Sam and Dean.

If Dean can forgive Sam for being 'demonic' - shouldn't divine brother's be able to do the same?

I hope/suspect there is a bigger theme in the whole hell arc. Like - if Dean will go to hell to redeam HIS brother - shouldn't an angel be willing to do as much?

Just a thought - but for me the redemption/reconsiiation of the Morning Star would be a much stronger victory than 'victory'.

[geamhradh.livejournal.com]

I love this meta. Is it okay if I marry it? :P

I know a lot of people started hating Sam for all the things he did in s4, but I don't understand how anyone can do that, I really don't (it makes me wonder if we're watching the same show *lol*). I just thought it was sad that instead of trusting and listening to each other, Sam and Dean were manipulated every step of the way, and simply didn't realize it in time. Both the angels and the demons knew which buttons to push.

I can't really blame Sam for the sneaking around and lying either. Was he supposed to say "Yes Dean, I have been using my powers while you were gone. Actually, I've become pretty good at it. Let's kill some demons! :D". How would Dean, the guy who's been worried about his brother turning evil (because of seemingly demonic powers) for years, have reacted to that?

In my view, Dean handled Sam all wrong all season. He tried to act just like John in handling Sam without remembering, 1) It didn't work the first time, and 2) Sam is a full grown adult.

Totally agree with this. Part of the problem is that they both expected the other to be the same after as before Hell, isn't it? But when that turned out not to be true, well, Sam decided Dean was too weak and Dean decided Sam was (becoming) evil? :(

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Sure, I'll cede all marriage rights straight to ya! Heh. ;)

Anyway, glad to hear this post worked for you! I started thinking I had jumbled up my logic somehow, so it's good to see it made sense to some people.

I think Sam's character really is suffering in the majority of viewer's minds so far because his story has been played mostly in the background and off-screen in comparison to Dean's. But it IS there, and it does make sense, and is, I find at least, endlessly fascinating. The idea that so many people are simply casting Sam aside as wrong/stupid/devoid-of-conscience, or saying he should just follow Dean because Dean is always right, makes me sad. Because it sounds like they're missing half the story. Kripke & Crew have managed to plot an amazingly complex show that I'd hate to see people missing because they're not listening to both sides of the story. But I guess we always listen to whatever we want to.

I can't really blame Sam for the sneaking around and lying either. Was he supposed to say "Yes Dean, I have been using my powers while you were gone. Actually, I've become pretty good at it. Let's kill some demons! :D". How would Dean, the guy who's been worried about his brother turning evil (because of seemingly demonic powers) for years, have reacted to that?
What? Now really, of course we all know Dean's reaction would have been precisely: "Wow, that's awesome, Sam. Thanks for being so honest with me!" Can't you see it? ;)

Part of the problem is that they both expected the other to be the same after as before Hell, isn't it? But when that turned out not to be true, well, Sam decided Dean was too weak and Dean decided Sam was (becoming) evil?
Exactly. Sam existed alone, by himself, he learned to take care of himself, get things done by himself. Of course Ruby was still around, but he really called the shots in a way he never had gotten to before when Dean was around. It really was natural that he couldn't go back to following Dean around like a puppy when he got back after that. And it's probably totally not 'cool' to say, but Sam wasn't completely wrong in his assessment of Dean as weak since he had come back. (One snapshot of 4.10 or 4.16 confirms it, not like I can blame Dean for being weakened by hell, man, it was forty years.) It just probably wasn't the...kindest word to use. But then again, neither was 'monster'.

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

I didn't see Dean as weak in 4.10 or 4.16. If you take a snapshot of anything it can be deceiving. They were moments, they weren't showing what Dean actually was. Yes Dean was dealing with alot of horrific stuff BUT he was still dealing with it. And pretty darn well. I dare say he dealt with it better than Sam dealt with his own problems.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

I don't mean "morally" weak. I mean, weakened. Tired. He said it himself in 4.15 after Pamela's death. He was worn out, to the point of basically feeling like, 'what the hell even is the point anymore?'. Understandable given what he'd been through. But Sam was at a different point in his life there. His response, was 'Get mad'. It's a comparison of their two states of mind at the time. Dean was tired of Life. While Sam needed to work to save Life. Of course it was the difference of experience, what the boys had undergone that summer. As different people, with different experiences, their reactions were also different. No one can fault them that.

Now, a discussion of what was the healthiest way of dealing with their problems is another story. But a discussion I'm not interested in debating. (I mean, have you seen this show? They're all suicidal, fucked up and unhealthy to a core. But we love them for it anyway.)

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Yes he should have. It doesn't matter if he'd have gotten mad, it was still Sam's responsibility to be truthful about it. In point of fact, Dean probably would have been LESS mad if Sam hadn't lied about it. It would have been like other times, Dean would get upset at first and then be all like "okay let's move on". He even tried to do that here. He did let Sam talk, in I Know what You did. He listened to Sam, everything Sam had to tell him(which was as we found not, still leaving out pretty important details). He even tried to be civil to Ruby for Sam's sake.

What did Sam do in response, after that? Within 2 episodes Sam was sneaking out and lying to him, simply because Dean didn't say what he wanted to hear(in Criss Angel).

[tripoli8.livejournal.com]

Oh, man. Yes, yes and yes. Sam and Dean have both made decisions going back years and years to get them here, and who's to blame for what is just a boring conversation to me. I don't get it. They're both right. They're both wrong.

Setting aside which--Sam's just a guy. He's 26 and he didn't finish college and he doesn't expect to get old and he's probably slightly nuts. He's had the forces of heaven and hell orchestrating his entire life and everyone around him since ten years before he was born to ensure that he was in that convent at that moment doing exactly what he did--why is everybody so surprised that it worked? And he didn't have an angel backing him up, either. Shit, I know fast food is bad for me, but I'll stop at Hardee's on my way home if I pass a billboard with a picture of a cheeseburger on it. I mean, the fact that Sam came as heartbreakingly close as he did to actually saving the world, and saved the 1200+ people he did just in that year in between, is kind of amazing.

I haven't been able to articulate this stuff, but the way everybody's actions get talked about, especially Sam's, just BAFFLES me. I don't identify with Sam overmuch, but I think the guy's got a good head on his shoulders, and in his position, with the information he had, I think a lot of good, smart people would've done what he did. I especially liked your observation that a lot season four was about how monsters are created; I hadn't thought of it that way before.

And even Cindy McClellan's on a continuum; Sam's killed tons of demon hosts before. He killed Lilith's host right after, if she was still alive then. Being able to shove a screaming woman into the back of a car might be a new thing for Sam personally, but he thought he was a couple of hours from the end of the world. Morally, it's just not that different from the demon he and Ruby killed while it was strapped to a chair, or the woman in The Rapture he stabbed and then drank, or the Crossroad Demons he killed because they pissed him off, or Ruby's host who Bobby shot pretty much for the hell of it, or the poor janitor who had to die for them to get revenge on Azazel.

...I need to stop rambling and go to sleep.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

and he's probably slightly nuts
I burst out loud laughing reading that, but the sad part is, it's kinda true.

He's had the forces of heaven and hell orchestrating his entire life and everyone around him since ten years before he was born to ensure that he was in that convent at that moment doing exactly what he did--why is everybody so surprised that it worked? And he didn't have an angel backing him up, either. Shit, I know fast food is bad for me, but I'll stop at Hardee's on my way home if I pass a billboard with a picture of a cheeseburger on it. I mean, the fact that Sam came as heartbreakingly close as he did to actually saving the world, and saved the 1200+ people he did just in that year in between, is kind of amazing.

EXCELLENT point! Especially the: "why is everyone so surprised that it worked?" Sam blaming himself is understandable. Dean being disappointed since he believed Sam was better than that, is understandable. But for us, as viewers? The whole damn thing was orchestrated. And we still say his 'free will' lead him there?

I don't identify with Sam overmuch, but I think the guy's got a good head on his shoulders, and in his position, with the information he had, I think a lot of good, smart people would've done what he did.
I guess in the end, that's all that I was trying to point out. That was my perception, and yet I'd had trouble organizing it until I finally sat down and made myself. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in my perception. ;)

And even Cindy McClellan's on a continuum; Sam's killed tons of demon hosts before. He killed Lilith's host right after, if she was still alive then. Being able to shove a screaming woman into the back of a car might be a new thing for Sam personally, but he thought he was a couple of hours from the end of the world. Morally, it's just not that different from the demon he and Ruby killed while it was strapped to a chair, or the woman in The Rapture he stabbed and then drank, or the Crossroad Demons he killed because they pissed him off, or Ruby's host who Bobby shot pretty much for the hell of it, or the poor janitor who had to die for them to get revenge on Azazel.
That is a pretty good list. I know it's happened all the time, this show has been pretty fast and loose on the whole saving the person the demon's inside, though I'd never started compiling a list. All together, it looks pretty horrific. It seems like the only reason why the focus is on Cindy is because the show had Sam take the time deliberate over it, so it became memorable. But if one wants to say Sam's conscience is faulty in killing Cindy, then one can't ignore other characters who have done the same thing or worse. Killing the host without deliberation doesn't make your conscience any better. (Bobby shooting Ruby's host for the hell of it still drives me nuts! Who the hell's stupid idea was that? *facepalm*)

[tripoli8.livejournal.com]

I burst out loud laughing reading that, but the sad part is, it's kinda true.

Oh, yeah. Sam's been nuts since Mystery Spot, at least. Time Is On My Side is amazing to watch even in retrospect, because--uh, Sam, hon? Turning yourselves into zombies and harvesting organs from random people indefinitely? Really. Really?

But for us, as viewers? The whole damn thing was orchestrated.

Right! And as others have pointed out, Sam and Dean (and Bobby and Anna, I guess) were the only ones who were motivated by saving people with any consistency. (I dislike how they're started to wobble the idea that Sam's motivation was largely about saving hosts and killing Lilith--being power-hungry is way more boring, for starters.) Absolutely everybody else, including Castiel, was actively working towards the Apocalypse for at least part of the time, and Sam still almost avoided it, and Dean still almost stopped him. I mean, horseshoes and hand grenades, yeah, but I've got to give them some credit for that.

Killing the host without deliberation doesn't make your conscience any better.

Exactly. If it's justifiable to the characters the first time and the second time and the twelfth time, then it's justifiable the twenty-ninth time even if that's the only one when you can actually hear the victim beg for her life. To me, anything else is just squeamishness. And I don't mean to minimize the emotional effect of those scenes--if I never see a screaming woman forced into the trunk of a car again, it'll be too soon, thanks. But there's a Cindy McClellan inside every one of those random stunt-demons they kill on a weekly basis, and the show is ridiculously bad about dealing with that with any consistency. Which makes her death feel really manipulative--and I know that's what the demon intended it to be, but that doesn't address the writers' failure to deal with Sam and Dean's awareness of the fact.

Anyway--feel no need to respond to my term-paper-length comments, but I did appreciate this a lot.

[noctemus.livejournal.com]

I love your thoughts on season 4 and your interpretations, especially since they mirror my own. It's nice to read it especially since I'm in the minority who doesn't like Dean since season 3. I do hope though that the brothers reunite and heal but without any of them whoring themselves out like Angel did in season 2 after the Beige period and that Dean too take responsibility in the part he played to start the apocalypse, least we forget who broke the first seal....

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

I love Dean probably more than any male character in this century and overidentify with him LIKE WHOA to the point that it's probably totally unhealthy. And since S3, he's made even me step back and go, 'whoa, way to be assy' at times. Of course Sam's had his moments as well, but it's silly to think things are so cut and dry. Mainly, one's right, the other's wrong. I do think seeing both stories is important to seeing how well-constructed the show as a whole has been and to ignore one side to be missing half the point: That the show is essentially about humanity. How we rise and how we fall. How we try when we are beaten down. How we fuck up with the best and worst of intentions. This show, from day one, has been intentionally GROUNDED in a reality that few sci-fi/horror shows allow themselves to be. And I love it precisely for that.

Err, sorry to go all rambly on you. But I'm glad to see this post & interpretation worked for you! We all need some solace somehow, considering the wringer Kripke's hell-bent on sending us through for the next couple weeks. ;)

[lamingtonqueen.livejournal.com]

I really liked this meta - good to read one from a Sam pov without it being "SHUT UP HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!" ^_^` Also lots of interesting theories in the comments section.

I cannot agree with you enough about the voice mail. I really think that if they mention it it'll clear a LOT of air. I have this feeling like Dean thinks Sam heard HIS message and STILL did it anyway (aside from the obvious Sam-thinks-Dean-hates-him bit that everyone mentions). I do think if he had heard the message he would've at LEAST called Dean and they would've figured something was suss, or whatever. Even if they didn't, hearing that Dean was waiting in an angel 'green room' might make him think there was another option to choose (ie the angels had a plan to stop the seal breaking) and not gone through with it.

However, I really disagree with your view on the hotel fight. I don't see it at Dean saying "my way or the highway" at all. Sam saying that Dean never listens to him (incorrect, by the way - how many times has Dean defied his instincts to kill something because he trusted and believed Sam? One he definately should've killed is the son from the Croatoan episode that turned out to be a demon) but Dean listens to every word of he says. I think Dean thinks that Sam was all crazy but that he STILL trusted him really - that he would go with him into certain death to do it Sam's way (forget the angels) if they would leave the demon behind. Sam chose to trust a demon over his brother. I really side with Dean on this.

I was reading a bunch of metas on how people were being mean to Sam the other day - about how the Show was painting Sam's choices as all wrong and Dean's as all right. I don't think this is true. I think that it casts a negative or positive light not on the choice itself, but on the motivation behind it. I mean, think about it. Dean's choice to go to Hell for Sam's life, possibly from an outsider's POV, a bad idea. I mean, started the whole apocolypse thing. However, we sympathise because he did it because he loved his brother - valued his life more than his own. Sam not killing Jake all the way back in AHBL, also the wrong choice but the RIGHT thing to do. We cheered for him them, even though it bit him in the ass.

I would like to point out that neither Bobby nor Dean are blaming Sam for starting the Apocolypse. The CHOICE doesn't matter - it's why he did it (or at least, why they think he did it). Greed, pride, stubborness - negative traits. Dean not telling Sam about what John told him? Possibly the wrong choice, but he didn't want Sam to have to carry the burden. He didn't want to hurt him. Flashforward and Sam keeping his own secrets? Whether the choice is right or wrong doesn't matter because his motivation was self-preservation. He didn't want Dean to be mad at him.

I'm of course not saying Sam is a bad person at heart - I'm just trying to chuck this out there. Sam's choices are only wrong in the last season because his motivation became warped (through the pain of losing Dean). I think that if he starts trying to make the choices for the right reasons (like he did all the way through the first 2.5-3 seasons) then it'll start him on the road to redemption and also get Dean's trust back :)

[daniidebrabant.livejournal.com]

What I found amazing under rewatch of last season, is that Dean? Sides with Castiel over his brother incredibly early on in the season. He's hardly accepted angels exist, let alone just meeting the guy, and already he's believing every word. The MOMENT Cas says, "Your brother is down a dangerous road. Stop him, or we will." He believes it.

And that is the point I wish people would remember. Thank you for writing this meta.

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

I thought it needed saying too. ;)

Thanks for reading!

[dangomango.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent meta. I've been accused of over-identifying with Sam to the point of being biased, and perhaps that's true, but the show (and the fans) certainly seem skewed the other way, so this was nice to see.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't watch SPN any more, but this post was brilliant. ITA your examination of what free will really means, versus the limited options Sam was faced with and the ways both brothers were manipulated by powerful forces. You've reminded me how thoughtful and complex this show can be.

[impulsiveanswer.livejournal.com]

Oh, sweetie, you are the wing beneath my wings :) Where do I start...

Effectively, it was not just Ruby that fed him this information. The Angels backed this up. Bobby believed it. Sam believed it. Dean believed it.

Absolutely correct. Everyone believed (or let people believe) Lilith was going to set Lucifer free by breaking the last seal. Under this assumption, wanting to kill her before she could is perfectly understandable.

He was hurting no one else but demons, even helping save the people possessed, at the expense of his own. But he practically weighed out his choices and rationally arrived at the decision that it was worth it...

And look at his examples: Dean and John. Both men gave up their lives and souls to save one person they loved. Why wouldn't Sam be willing to do the same to save EVERYONE he loves, along with the rest of the world? And why did so many people in fandom decide that this was such a horrible, selfish thing when they thought Dean (and John) were so brave and selfless for doing the same thing?

You see what he's doing there? He's automatically claiming superior ground in order to justify silencing Sam's own thoughts.

This went on before season 4. In S2's "Simon Said", Sam wants to go to Ellen's for help when he has a vision and Dean asks if he really wants to go to the Roadhouse and announce he's a "psychic freak". And after Sam found out about the save-him-or-kill-him order, Dean assures him on several occasions that he won't go bad because Dean won't let him. Not because Sam has the strength of character to prevail over the YED's plans - only because Dean was there to make sure it didn't happen.

I believe that Dean feels he has a claim on Sam's life because John gave it to him twice: once during the fire and again right before John died. The problem is that John had no right to give Sam to Dean that second time and Dean had no right to accept ownership.

Dean was alienating him, and Ruby was there to turn to. She listened and comforted in a way Dean once had, but hadn't since he came back from Hell.

Ruby was also (or at least presented herself as) one of the only people - if not the only person - who has ever accepted Sam for all that he is. As an adolescent, John and Dean never accepted how he didn't like hunting or his decision to go to Stanford; Jess, Barry, Mr. Wyatt, and anyone he met at Stanford didn't know about the hunting; and he was almost immediately separated (sometimes by his choice and sometimes not) from those who knew about both: Becky and Sarah in S1, Madison in S2. FINALLY feeling understood and being able to keep that person around is very seductive, especially when he was feeling so alienated from Dean.

But there's one particular moment that keeps running through my head: Sam throwing down the knife on the bed, and begging Dean to come with them. Even after Dean had locked him up in that panic room, even after the whole season, it still takes my breath away that Sam so graciously still asks Dean to be with him on this....The MOMENT Cas says, "Your brother is down a dangerous road. Stop him, or we will." He [Dean] believes it.

Sam has almost always had enough faith that Dean has a good (or at least understandable) reason for doing whatever he does: Dean's promise that they would find John in S1's "Wendigo", finding out he left him alone in a hotel room with a Shtriga on the loose in "Something Wicked", punching him after John died, going to prison with him in S2, sympathizing with him after finding out that Dean tortured people in Hell and liked it. The few times he didn't - like in "Scarecrow" and "Hunted" - he resolved that break in faith by the end of the episode. The only time I can think of where Dean showed Sam something like that kind of faith was in "Mystery Spot" when Sam was trying to convince him about the time loop.

I am so bookmarking this :)

[katla-frej.livejournal.com]

Hi *waves* yeah this is an old post but i felt i just found it and after reading i felt i had to comment.

first however i have to admit i am a major Samgirl not a "oh you manly stud" Sam, but an "oh you poor thing allow me to feed you soup" it's wierd i admit. but that being said even i started, during and after season 4-5, having to actively aviod coms and reading metas because it seemed the my-favorite-brother-can-do-no-wrong-movement exploded. I couldn't handle the *gushing* people was doing in favor of whoever they were rooting for.

This meta though it hit spot on to everything i felt during those seasons i always watch from Sam's pow and it makes me happy that i wasn't the only one who could see exactly what Dean was doing was hypocritical blaming Sam for trusting Ruby when he started trusting Castiel alot faster, even after Heaven was revealed to have fishy motives no one seemed to be pointing fingers and screaming "HOW COULD YOU TRUST HIM". (not that i blame Dean the angels were selling it perectly but like you said so was Ruby)

So what i am saying is thank you for finally giving me some closure to the whole leadup to the apocalypse and for describing this in much more depth than i could ever hope to.

PS the whole killing the nurse oh so wrong discussion i'm a little of two minds with, i always feel like the show hints alot at that exact kind of moments ala shooting Madison where killing or huritng an innocent has to be done. The problem is it's not pretty and sometimes it alienates characters, which is why i think the writers try to leave it out as much as they can but it's still there, Sam IS a guy who was able to pull the trigger on a girl he cared for someone he had sex with just hours before without it leading to any major guiltcomplex (shown on the show atleast). Sam wasn't kidding in the pilot when he says they were raised as warriors.